^ditto

I've played back when it was still in version 4. So no. By the way, saying that people aren't qualified to make a judgment based on that is stupid.

Just buff the SMG and Shotgun if they're THAT underpowered. Gimping/nerfing gets old after a while, and the Rifle certainly doesn't need it.

weapons are fine as they are
its probably that when you see what weapon you were killed with you'll start hating it and make shitty topics about that its unbalanced
Sheesh.

fleek

I've used the rifle and I'm damn good with it. The thing is, and I've already said it at least four times, you can use the rifle at long range scoped with near pinpoint accuracy, and at any other range without a scope while MOVING with near pinpoint accuracy. The rifle has NO DOWNSIDES. NONE. Name one, I dare you!

I can name a few downsides:
It's crap at breaking blocks.
It has a slower firing rate than the smg.
It can't instant kill with a body shot whereas the shotgun can.

I've played back when it was still in version 4. So no. By the way, saying that people aren't qualified to make a judgment based on that is stupid.

Been playing since 0.4? Figured you would have grown up by now.

Things to think about:
- if you get hit, you get recoil effect (you cant aim while taking fire)
- if you get hit, you move slower for a while (like in CS)

These two could be useful in balance in future. Now my point of view about it:

Semi:
- semi accuracy unchanged (decreasing it would make game unplayable)
- semi hipfire accuracy decreased by 20-30%
- semi damage unchanged
- semi magazine capacity decreased by ~30% (~7 bullets)
- semi recoil increased by 20-30%

OR
- leave it as it is now

SMG:
- rename it to assault rifle (for milfags: smg's ain't used vs regular army)
- increased damage by at least 33% (Head: 76 or more, Torso: 34, Limb: 21)
- increased accuracy slighty (to have some chance vs hidden rifler at mid range)
- a suppressing fire from it should be some effective, ppl should scare of it, now it is harmless

Shotgun:
- increased damage by 33%-50%, or 8 - 9 pellets per shell with same dmg per pellet like it's now
- magazine is ok since you can reload it on the fly

IMO balance should be implemented quickly, cuz semi will be imbalaced more and more not only by technical issues, but the fact it is most used weapon and players just gets semi in habit to use, and then it will be imba forever.

Balancing more than 2 things is difficult. Lets have one thing that would be start-point for balancing. And as I see, it must be Semi. We must decide what form of Semi we would like to see, making game still or rather more playable, then take SMG and Shotgun under discussion, so later we can think about adding new features on stable, balanced ground.

Then, the topic shouldn't be "The rifle is unbalanced." but "What rifle should be?", trying to not touch SMG and Shotgun matter till Rifle matter isn't completed.

Frosty
It being unable to break blocks is hardly a downside. Everyone comes equipped with a pickaxe and shovel, and for any cover, enemies need to peep out of cover to shoot you, ALWAYS exposing their heads in the process.

The slower firing rate is irrelevant because it does more damage per second. It has a 1/3 chance (being completely random here) to do 100 damage through a headshot, and a 2/3 chance to do 49 damage through a bodyshot. So, it does 66 damage per shot on average, assuming completely randomly aimed shots at a person. This is at any range. No spread, little kickback.

It's not necessarily a downside that the rifle cannot bodyshot in one hit, since it can headshot in one hit, which is very similar given the game's hit detection... and it can do this at any range, whereas the shotgun has it as a specialty, to COMPENSATE for incredibly short range and wide spread.

woda
I almost entirely agree with your changes regarding the rifle, but I don't think anything will compensate for the ability of the rifle to just one shot headshot at any range, even if the SMG will be buffed. It's easy for a rifleman to shoot no scope at close range with little to no falloff in accuracy. Also, the clip size needs to be smaller than 7 bullets, considering the number of bullets spent in spam. I suggest the amount be closer to 4-5, rather than 7, because it encourages accuracy (given it takes 3 shots to kill a full-health enemy and 2 to kill one that's taken even 2 points of falling damage through bodyshots). It would still be possible to kill at most 4 people per clip (assuming headshots) with the minimum being 1.

I also would suggest lowering BODYSHOT damage to 35-40. It still allows the rifle to 3 hit kill, just makes falling damage less of an issue when dealing with rifles.

I dont think it is because we die to it and complain, it was my first gun and I laugh at the fact i can take an average player with a shotgun or smg up close

A rifle should not have a laughable time versus a SMG
I mean i went smg 10 times against one guy lost each time
pulled out a rifle he couldn't do crap all even up close with his smg

smg = ass and recoil
shotgun = hope the map isn't a open field and has a lot of corners to camp around

I hate how noobs who think they're only dying is because the rifle has an advantage, when they actually have their guns pointed 10 feet to the left of the enemy shooting mindlessly.

Each gun is nearly perfectly equal. The rifle is good at long - mid range, and has pretty good aim and damage. The SMG is good at in between long and middle - short range, and has a heck load of ammo. The Shotgun is good from mid - short range, and is pretty good for rampaging.

The rifle barely stands a chance against the other 2 weapons at close range, and is about equal to both at mid range. The SMG has an annoying recoil, but that will be reduced in the next Beta so you don't have to worry. It also doesn't do as much damage, but the rapid fire gets you killed pretty quickly. The shotgun can get one hit kills up to mid range, and can even hit and do damage from 100 blocks away, but is usually overpowered by the other guns at long ranges like 100+ blocks.

Every gun has their ups and faults, but I say the rifle is fine as it is. If you are 40 blocks away from your opponent, it's any guns' game. Each gun is meant for their distance, and if you're getting sniped all the time it only means you can't aim and shoot back.

YourMom

The problem with the rifle is, as stated at least a dozen times, the fact that it is good at ALL ranges. At long range you scope and have near perfect accuracy. At medium range you scope or no scope and have good-perfect accuracy. At close range you can MOVE AROUND and have pinpoint accuracy. At close range, if the rifle user gets off a headshot, you can have a shotgun or SMG or whatever, you're dead... and it's much easier getting off a shot at close range... the fact that the rifle user has no complications at close range AT ALL (negligible recoil, fast firing rate, lots of ammo) makes it an easy match for the other guns.

40 blocks away the rifle will STILL win the battle on average because of its damage capabilities... unless one side has the ambush advantage. Whenever I approach ANY rifleman, I know if he sees me before I get within killing range I am DEAD. If I SMG at medium-long range (with bursts) and the rifleman goes to look at me, I have to find some sort of cover or I'm dead. The rifle's damage output is just too high and it, as stated multiple times, has NO DOWNSIDES. It might not be IDEAL for close range combat, but point and click headshot at close range works JUST FINE since our heads make up 1/3 of our bodies. I aim pretty well and get my share of kills with the SMG, but the majority of my deaths are long, medium, and close range Rifle deaths.

No aspect of the Rifle encourages ammo conservation, high accuracy, or crouching. 10 shots, takes 3 (or fewer) to kill someone. That's more than I can say for any of the other guns (SMG, takes around 8 shots to kill someone if all shots hit, which they won't, and most likely takes an average of 20 shots to kill a person, combined with 120 spare bullets makes for roughly 7-8 kills a loadout, while the rifle has 60 shots, enough for 20 kills a loadout, since most rifle shots are more likely to hit than SMG rounds).

I'm going to have to agree about the rifle being unbalanced, partly because it doesn't suck as much at short range as the other guns suck at long range. Take the rifle and you've got a great sniping weapon that's passable in a close fight. Take the SMG or the shotgun and you've got a great close combat weapon that's rubbish in a sniper duel.

But the main problem is that the maps heavily favour long range combat. If you play the default maps the game is all about snipers on ridgetops (and later snipers in bunkers on ridgetops) picking off everything they see for miles around. And while some of the custom maps make an effort to have chokepoints or cluttered buildings, even they can't really force close combat. Because if you can't tunnel your way under an ambush point, you can just avoid it entirely by circling halfway around the map.

Personally I think an option for generating underground cave maps, or just maps where large areas are incredibly cluttered without any high overlooking hills, would go a long way towards making the smg and shotgun less redundant.

Someone said this already, but instead of making the rifle worse (which older fans of the game will dislike), make the SMG and the shotty better.

Yes, the rifle is better than the other two weapons, but that doesn't mean that its overpowered and that it needs to be downgraded. It means that the other weapons need to be improved so that it can stand a chance with the rifle. The rifle was downgraded once already with the rifle cone, and look how poorly the community responded to that.

If you improve the SMG and the shotgun, we get to have our good rifle, and we also get a good SMG and shotty, as opposed to a bad rifle, smg, and shotty. Everyone wins

@Zinger

instead of making the rifle worse (which older fans of the game will dislike), make the SMG and the shotty better.

Fucking thank you.

Yes, the rifle is better than the other two weapons, but that doesn't mean that its overpowered and that it needs to be downgraded.

Once again, fucking thank you.

The rifle being destroyed (like it previously was in 0.53/0.54) was caused by Counter Strike/Call of Duty crybabies bitching about nothing. Obviously a weapon that is powerful enough to kill someone at hundreds of meters is going to kill just as efficiently, if not better, at 10 meters. Logic, people. Come on now.

Buff the other two weapons (hell, get rid of the SMG and make it a proper LMG or an assault rifle), don't ruin the one good weapon.

get rid of the SMG and make it a proper LMG or an assault rifle

THIS

No just NO.

http://i.imgur.com/EzMcp.png

To all of you doody heads arguing that the rifle is fair: no. I couldn't hit shit during 0.54, so buffing the other weapons might be the way to go.

A more fair option of "fixing" the rifle would be to
-Reduce clip size to like 6 or something
-Reduce accuracy somewhat

It still would kick ass anyways since the SMG doesn't kill shit and the Shotgun can't fire at long distances for shit.

@Daddy Warbux
This server sucks, it wasn't rolbacked a long time. My best streak there is 67 or 69, just hitting headshots and call airstrikes, but it's not about that rifle is too powerful, there are too much kiddies out there.

I would like to see SMG changed to LMG or assault rifle, that have ANY chance vs rifle at long distance.

tl'dr but I think the rifle shoots WAY to quick. It should almsot be shotgun speed.

POMF

AAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHA!

"Being destroyed"? Are you serious? The rifle was almost as accurate as it was, only losing a fraction of its accuracy when hitscan was changed for rudimentary bullet physics, but because of crybabies such as YOU, they decided to increase the accuracy again because GOD FORBID you can't get headshots from fog distance under 50% of the time! I still got my very good share of headshots at distance with little to no effort BEFORE the accuracy re-increase. Also, your logic is flawed, again, going into realism. The rifle sports almost no kickback while being able to fire straight with no falloff across the map. You don't have to do your physics to know that's some bullshit unless the Rifle in game is a modern gun (which it isn't modeled after) so don't argue realism, will you?

I like the SMG personally and those who say it is 'shit' need to learn to use it, as I get my fair share of kills with it. I only wish the ammo was easier to conserve, but it is a very effective assault weapon except in the face of the current Rifle, which as mentioned several times, outclasses any gun at any range.

Maybe you should endure a nerf to the Rifle. It'll still be the longshot headshotting machine it is, it just won't be as easy to use when mobile. You can still get headshots while on the run, but missing will screw you over so you can't beat other guns so easily at medium-close range. Skilled gameplay is still rewarded without unbalancing the relationship between the guns that is currently non-existent due to the strengths of the Rifle.

Of course "crybabies" such as me were listened to; we grew up with the rifle, back when it was the only weapon available and no one cried about it. It was deadly, efficient, and required skill to use. Once 0.53/0.54 hit, it became a game of luck; shooting multiple rounds directly at an enemy's head in order to score a kill. Or you would just get lucky and score a headshot with one round. Happens all the time.

It's been stated multiple times that a rifle such as the one in AoS (which is modeled after a Gewehr 43) should be able to score multiple shots within a very small group at 100 yards (which is about where the fog begins in AoS). That's what the rifle previously did, and what it currently (to an extent) does.

If you insist, we'll toss realism out the window. Why is a weapon such as the SMG (which is modeled after a MP5) so inaccurate? Because it is meant to used at short/medium range, even though it can be used at longer ranges with some effectiveness. The shotgun itself is just as powerful and effective as the rifle at short range (even more so in some cases). There is no reason to nerf the rifle (again), increase the accuracy and the firepower of the SMG and, if it's really needed, buff the shotgun.

By all means, continue to complain if you must. I think the actual ratio of complainers vs happy campers is in our favor. It was the complete opposite during the era of 0.53/0.54.

The problem with the SMG and the Rifle is... the Rifle has more power behind it's shots but less recoil and easy control

SMG has a smaller caliber bullet, isn't as powerful, but has more recoil

I actually think the smg has more recoil then the shotgun

Though oddly after the tenth shot with the smg Recoil suddenly disapears but doesn't matter since your looking up at the sky like your firing a AK

The shotgun i really have no problem with it is a great up close gun where you can hipfire it is meant to be close up smg meant to be a mix of both but can kinda do upclose and rifle can seem to do close to long

My reasoning for balancing is
Rifle Give it more recoil aka punishing a missed shot up close since you have to re aim (so if you have good aim you are punished 0%)(this is for the people complaining about the rifle and kinda doesn't make sense why a smg shooting 9mm bullets has more recoil per bullet then this unless we give the smg a one shot head capability too, which in this game would make no sense)

SMG give it less recoil

Shotgun, well maybe give them more move speed so they can get to their range and harder to shoot at

POMF

No one cried about the rifle because it was the only weapon. That's like complaining about shooting bullets with a gun.

"Of course "crybabies" such as me were listened to; we grew up with the rifle, back when it was the only weapon available and no one cried about it. It was deadly, efficient, and required skill to use. Once 0.53/0.54 hit, it became a game of luck; shooting multiple rounds directly at an enemy's head in order to score a kill. Or you would just get lucky and score a headshot with one round. Happens all the time. "

Nerfing the rifle doesn't mean reducing the accuracy. I agree that reducing the accuracy is stupid. However, say you decreased the clip size significantly. That wouldn't hurt skilled players as much, as it would be harmful almost only if you were spamming shots without aiming well. Or, as others have said, if you increase the recoil, it would prevent you from constantly firing with the rifle at close range. You would have to aim more carefully. Both of these would be beneficial because they would make the difference between skilled and unskilled rifle players much larger. In contrast, buffing the other weapons just makes unskilled players able to be good with all weapons more easily.

"It's been stated multiple times that a rifle such as the one in AoS (which is modeled after a Gewehr 43) should be able to score multiple shots within a very small group at 100 yards (which is about where the fog begins in AoS). That's what the rifle previously did, and what it currently (to an extent) does. "

That's true. On the other hand, the SMG, in real life, wouldn't have a serious disadvantage against the rifle at that range, so we can't always use real life as a great indicator. Otherwise the SMG would be the strongest weapon in the game, by far. That said, yes, the accuracy of the rifle should stay the same.

"If you insist, we'll toss realism out the window. Why is a weapon such as the SMG (which is modeled after a MP5) so inaccurate? Because it is meant to used at short/medium range, even though it can be used at longer ranges with some effectiveness. The shotgun itself is just as powerful and effective as the rifle at short range (even more so in some cases). There is no reason to nerf the rifle (again), increase the accuracy and the firepower of the SMG and, if it's really needed, buff the shotgun."

I don't see why nerfing the rifle is seen as a bad thing. Nerfing it is no different than buffing the SMG and shotgun as far as gameplay goes. The end result is that the rifle is the same. Instead of focus on arbitrary nerfing/buffing, focus on what increases the skill required to use a weapon. You don't even necessarily need to do pure nerfing or pure buffing; weapons can receive a combination of new advantages and disadvantages that make them equal to each other, but just as important, make skilled players shine above poor ones more.

Will. Not. Read. Through. 1000000 paragraphs. Of. Retarded. Opinions.

Then, once again.

Rifle should not be nerfed too much. Reducing clip size, or adding a little bit more kickback would be acceptable, but not needed now - there would be too much changes in too short period of time.

SMG:
- increase ammo supply to at least 150
- increase damage by at least 33% (Head: 76 or more, Torso: 34, Limb: 21)
- increase accuracy significantly
- eventually add more kickback strength

Shotgun:
- 9 pellets per shell (wiki says it's 6 now)

Now, with shotgun or semi it is quite easy to make good kill streak. With SMG after about 4 kills usually I'm out of ammo. Should be possible to kill same amount of people using SMG and semi, now when passing to enemy spawn, i'm out of ammo in the middle of my way ~~ wich makes SMG like very close range weapon, closer even than Shotgun, you need to be sure to hit only headshots to not waste ammo.

MoleMan is being stupid.

woda
Increasing the benefit of other guns doesn't decrease the benefit of 'first shot first kill'. It still doesn't stop riflemen from spamming their 60 shots. I do, however, like the shotgun change.

Bertinator
It was far from a game of luck, it was just less accurate. I could just as easily complain that the SMG is a 'game of luck' because I can't hit on every shot.

Also, the increase in the spread didn't make it a game of luck, it reduced the effective accuracy at long range so you would have to A. shoot at closer targets or B. use more rounds to down a single target at long range. If you're shooting at maximum possible range at a head the size of your crosshair center, you should expect to miss a few shots before you get a kill, not complain for more accuracy so you can one-shot anyone at any range with one shot as long as you're aiming for the head.

I also didn't call for a reduction of accuracy. I called for a heavy kickback if you are running around while shooting (but not if you are crouched and scoped or maybe just scoped), and a reduction in ammo to prevent shot spam. That's it.

Frosty

Explain.