Hey all. :D

So I just want to say that I'm REALLY sick of people trying to call the SMG overpowered. -_______________-' To start, it doesn't really even matter; like 9/10ths of the people I played with used Semis 24/7, and that actually got on my nerves because of the lack of intensity. It was more like "shoot first or you die", and I prefer those games where you actually stand a chance. Dying after one, well-aimed headshot isn't nearly as fun as going extremely commando and having a real gun fight with the other team.

Now, I'll even admit it myself- I only use the new SMG about 35% of the time now. 55% more of that time is usually the Semi, and the remmaining 10% is the Shotgun. The SMG is indeed good now, for it can actually stand up against the Semi jerks who spend their entire day sitting around sniping. In addition, YOU ACTUALLY MOVE WHEN YOU HAVE AN SMG. -_________________-' The jerks I refer to with Semis actually just sit on their lazy hindquarters and snipe anybody before they can get closer. Thus, that provokes the other team to use Semis, and thus, it just turns into a Sniper Battle or a Sniper Slaughter. And I think we can all agree that's SO much less fun than actually going into battle with an automatic weapon and being as much of a boss as Rambo.

Now, the SMG is MUCH better. What people don't realize is that the people who critizice the SMG buff SPAM SEMIS. They're just afraid that they'll be beaten by SMG users. *sigh...* I mean, does anybody actually REALIZE how sad that is??? That's like whining about not doing your homework because it's too hard! I'm going to tell it to those Semi retards ONE. LAST. TIME.

IT'S. NOT. UP. TO. YOU. ONLY. SO. SHUT. THE. F*CK. UP.

Honestly, this buff is EXACTLY what we needed. The SMG could barely even be used past the range of the Shotgun, and was basically a mix of the two weapons in the crapiest ways possible. If you don't understand, I'll put it in diagram form:

#Example#
Weapon Traits:
-Trait #1 (Level of Importantness, 1 being lowest and 4 being greatest)
-Trait #2 (Level of Importantness, 1 being lowest and 4 being greatest)
-Trait #3 (Level of Importantness, 1 being lowest and 4 being greatest)
-Trait #4 (Level of Importantness, 1 being lowest and 4 being greatest)

Now these were basically the ideas of how the game looked BEFORE 0.60...

Semi's Traits:
-Power (3)
-Accuracy (4)
-Range (2)
-Fire Rate (1) (yes, it has a fairly good fire rate, considering it's only semi-automatic really)

SMG Traits:
-Rate of Fire (2)
-Range (1)

Shotgun Traits:
-Power (3)
-Accuracy (2) (you know within it's short range :P)
-Rate of Fire (1)

Now, here's the basic stats and performance AFTER the update:

Semi's Traits:
-Power (3)
-Accuracy (4)
-Range (2)
-Fire Rate (1)

SMG Traits:
-Fire Rate (1) (because firing more quickly doesn't matter as much now; it matters about landing those powerful hits that it now has)
-Range (2) (because you can actually HIT something now)
-Power (3) (because it actually does more damage)
-Accuracy (4) (because you can actually land hits from a distance now, and THAT'S what really caused SMG-users problems)

Shotgun Traits:
-Power (3)
-Accuracy (2)
-Rate of Fire (1)

WaitwaitwaitwaitWAIT. Let's take a look again! This time, for all of the retards, I'm going to explain why I say these things for the weapons' traits:

Semi's Traits:
-Power (3) (if you get a headshot, it's a one hit KO, so that's VERY important; but it also only takes a few shots for any other kill)
-Accuracy (4) (if you can't get those pinpoint-accurate shots that the Semi has, you can't deal the damage that it gives!)
-Range (2) (it's a defensive weapon- they'll never see you coming)
-Fire Rate (1) (not really the highlight of the Semi; it's just off to the side and not really factoring in its performance)

SMG Traits:
-Fire Rate (1) (because firing more quickly doesn't matter as much now; it matters about landing those powerful hits that it now has)
-Range (2) (because you can actually HIT something from a distance now)
-Power (3) (because it actually does more damage)
-Accuracy (4) (because you can actually land hits from a distance now, and THAT'S what really caused SMG-users problems)

Okay, I kinda just used the same explanation for the SMG, but let's take ONE LAST COMPARISON...

...

Now, is it just me, or DO THOSE FACTORS ADD UP TO THE SAME STATS?!?! YEAH GUYS, LOOK- SAME VALUE IN RANGE, POWER, FIRE RATE, AND ACCURACY!!!

Now before you go off at me, I would like to say this: just because they have the same "stats" from the observation of their performance DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE TRULY EQUAL. It simply means that NEITHER ARE COMPLETELY WEIGHTED IN POWER COMPARED TO ANOTHER. But since they both have generally the same stats, that means that it merely depends on how they are used by the PLAYER and THEIR SKILL, NOT JUST BY HOW GOOD OR CHEAP THE WEAPONS ARE!!!

Something nobody takes into account is that there ARE people with skill who are actually pissed at the n00bs who can't quit whinning about the performance of people. I was just playing on Goon Haven the other day, and KomradeKristina and MinecraftGamer were camping in this HUGE enemy structure and I spent SUCH a long time trying to get them out. Not until I started writing this I had felt that they were just camping and being n00bs, but THEN I realized at the strategizing and skill it must have taken to get up there in the first place and maintain their position that whole time (about 20 minutes or so)! It occurred to me that it wasn't them that lacked the skill and needed to resort to something n00by; it was simply ME not being able to compete with THEM! So whenever you see somebody actually dominating you with THEIR skill instead of doing something totally n00by, DON'T BE A N00B.

I think my point is clear enough to understand. If you still need help understanding why the SMG and Semi are balanced or have another point to bring up, please do so in a comment.

But there's something else I wanted to say...

Did ANYBODY notice that we barely discussed the Shottie AT ALL???

Yeah, that's right guys- the Shottie is being NEGLECTED. It looks like a child's toy compared to the Semi and SMG now! What ever happened to the idea of a weapon that actually CONNECTS at close ranged and completely MASSACRES enemies that are shot? Why aren't there any total headshot moments that make us go "OOH, THAT'S GOTTA HURT!"? Where's the idea of a weapon that is ACTUALLY the King of Close-Quarters Combat?!?!

The SMG and the Semi are fine, but the Shottie is just a weapon barely ANYBODY ever uses anymore. The game has become based around long-ranged battles where cover doesn't matter anymore, for it's just WAY too easy to destroy. Thus, Shotgun-weilders can't get close enough to pwn the n00bs. :,( The Shottie is my best friend in A LOT of FPSs, and it's actually a shame that it's full potential as an infamous bane of murder hasn't been unlocked by Ben. So this is what I suggest:

1) Keep the power of the Shottie the same, but up it's range and accuracy to "mid-range" (basicaly the effectiveness the SMG used to have). I say the best way of going about this is by recuding the spread, because the spread is what really causes that. So nerf the spread a bit, but not by enough to make it more like a Semi; just enough to keep it's spread fairly wide within an average distance, if you guys know what I mean. By doing so, this will give the Shotgun the range and accuracy it needs to compare to the SMG and Semi now.
2) Up the damage it takes to destroy blocks from gunfire (and maybe pickaxe damage if you guys think that's a good idea too, but I honestly don't know), thus enabling people to actually find cover and think more tactically instead of picking and pissing off people while hiding from the entire fight. If the amount of durabilty was upped for the blocks, not only would Shottie-users be able to have a bit more safety from being sniped, but demolition would have to be more gradual instead of a single, pride-bestowed structure being totalled in a few seconds by 10 people with SMGs. And who knows- maybe it will give us all some time to fight grievers at work. ;) I say that maybe 5 hits (166% damage to destroy, compared to 100%) or so would be a good amount, because it's not above 200% but it's not too close to 100% either.

As long as these things are applied, nothing should be unbalanced based on mere performance, and should ONLY be good in the hands of the proper player. ;) They would all be BALANCED in some way, and it would only depend on the SKILL of the player in the end.

So that's how I feel about it, and again- SHUT UP ABOUT RE-NERFING THE SMG, IT'S FINE YOU D*CKHEADS. -______________-'

And while I'm here, what do you guys think about more points being given for melee kills? :?

The only reason I usually dont use the SMG is because I usually play on narrow maps like pinpoint and goon so campers can see you basically everywhere so aiming with your SMG at their 100 blocks far half heads vs headshot is not very fun. But other then that I'm not a camper, if anything you can call me a charging sniper ;).
And remember: haters gonna hate so let them eat their asses every time you take them down with your "poopy" SMG and have fun, raging just makes the game more stressful.

Yeah, but I don't have a problem with that, I have a problem with the people who actually don't DO anything besides sit around and camp and don't make any offensive push, you know? It's fun when you see that you make progress, but those people who just keep it at completely unbalanced with Semis yet refuse to push up and on a true offense just make it BORING... XP

Rifle still trumps in any case over every weapon.
SMG can somewhat deal with Rifles now though due to reduced recoil. As an SMG user I am more than happy now
(in effect, some Rifle users are complaining that they can no longer have a perfect 10-0 k/d, and instead a 5/2 or similar)
Shotgun is just for lulz.

Keeping it real
/thread

THE GUNS ARE FINE THE WAY THEY ARE, NO MORE CHANGING

^That's code for

I AM SMG NOOB DUN NERF IT PLZZ

...so anyone who takes the time to carefully line up a shot is a lazy twerp?

I can understand being irritated with campers, but it's not a lasting issue if you learn to aim. The thing about campers is that you know exactly where they are, which makes them easy kills if you flank them.

I've shot plenty of real-world rifles, and I can tell you for a fact that taking the time to aim properly is one of the most important things you can do to help your shooting.

@Yorkshire
this

there is much other things to fix
and how the weapon works should be configured sever side, and not be handcoded into game - then feel free to test many different settings and choose the official one for tournaments and "pure" marked servers

weapons ain't equal on each map
smg still is somewhat sucksy for its 150 bullet supply

Bleh.

Guns are fine. If people insist on making the SMG weaker then just give it 10 or so less bullets per clip to prevent SMG spam and raep.
Or make it as inaccurate as before but ONLY when you are not using the ironsights.

I agree with what thunderstorm said, removing 5-10 bullets per clip would be good, and then the accuracy idea is pretty good, too. I think that the guns are pretty much fine, only a few people use the shotgun, because it's still somewhat broken on pyspades

I miss when it was just rifles and it was get good or die : / i do love shottie too though :) I havent been able to try the new smg buff though cause mouse sensitivity thing is wonky on my linux machine, and windows vm too.

Well for the guys who say that the SMG STILL needs to be NERFED *middle-finger to you guys* THE SMG IS FINE NOW, AND SO IS THE SEMI... -___________-' Either nerf BOTH the SMG AND the Semi or up the Shottie. We're influencing people to use the easiest weapons, not to develop their skills. Would you guys rather play with actual competitors and have a REAL GAME or play with a bunch of n00bs who only know how to do one thing?

@Marksmanship

I know how to aim dude, but when it comes to the fact that I play on mostly ALL straight maps (Goon Haven, Pinpoint, Hallway, etc.). This means that you can't flank unless it's on one of those PP maps where there's no lava damage (which is also a n00by thing... I would NEVER dare to stoop down to such a shameful tactic).

I'm not upset with the people who actually go into battle and fight me off with a Semi; I respect those people with the upmost honor that I can bestow upon them for their skill and bravery. I'm SICK of those people who hang back while the real battle is going on up close and just snipe the people who are actually trying to have a real battle... It's one thing to have a few snipers and a bunch of people on the front lines; you barely EVER see over 90% of the other team sitting back on defense and sniping, keeping the game COMPLETELY unproductive... -.-'

@shadowwriter Yeah, but now the Semi is too OVER-used... :,( As I've stated many times before, can't we have a REAL battle that's not distanced a good 100 blocks away with Semis??? The idea behind adding other weapons was to eliminate the boring idea of keeping everything based on simply keeping the battle at a standstill; SMGs and Shotties are offensive weapons, yet people don't use them nearly as much and sit around on their @$$es with Semis anyways. In simpler words, these guys aren't really even playing a strategy, they're just wasting their time and battery on their computers clicking a screen. Those who actually go out and TRY to have fun are actually DOING something in the game, while the people I keep trying to describe are just wasting EVERYBODY'S time, you know?

@Everyone Again, what I'm trying to get across is this: either make it so SKILL is actually required so that the game becomes intense and fun, or make it so that NO SKILL is required so that you can just win and let it be boring. You guys choose.

I think maybe Ben should add something like,options or "themes" for maps.
The Default,the way it's generated today(Not that so good for a shotgun user,unless you're a tunnel rat,good for snipers and SMGs).
A map focused on close range,maybe a smaller map with pre-generated tunnels,maybe a bunker,cant really think about a good idea,but something good for shotgun users,a place where they can get kills without having to walk for 5 minutes just to be sniped by that guy with the semi,without having to make a tunnel to get behind your opponent to get a kill.Something like that.

Why would we need to nerf the SMG? You can't deny that Rifle commanded dominance before. It still does and it's still the best weapon anyways but I don't think that the SMG needs to be buffed more. It's fine the way it is now. It's not my problem if you lose to an SMG because you can't aim at someone's head sufficiently with a Rifle.

Making weapons server-sided things would be awful. That means me and everyone else including yourself would have to adjust to different play styles and weapon properties on each server we go to. And I'm not just going to get good on one specific server for this. Although this idea seems like a romantic-idealistic prophecy that you can now make rocket launchers or buff your favorite weapon some, it's not going to work with a game such as this. Think about more weapons instead.

@Yorkshire I didn't say the SMG needed to be buffed more, I said that the SHOTTY needed to be buffed. :-\ And WTF, are you even talking to me...?

No.
Shotty does need to be buffed, but from a video game perspective, i don't know how. The only way it can be any better is if it's more accurate somehow. On most games Shotguns aren't given the range they deserve and rather are given a stereotypical short range

the shotgun's range is fine, you can get a lot of medium range kills pretty easily, with it. I only think it needs more pellets, or more damage per shot, because it is sometimes inconsistent, even at close range. more pellets would probably be better, though, because it would be able to get more kills with one shot, which is kind of a thing missing in most shotguns nowadays in video games

TL;DR I didn't read it either. :L

Yeah, from the ideas you guys have mentioned just now, adding more pellets COULD work actually... :S

As it is, the rifle dominates long and close range.
Even if you manage to reach a rifle user in close range when you use the SMG, he'll just headshot you with no warning whatsoever (unless you flank).

My solution would be to nerf the damage based on range, the rifle would do more damage in mid-long range while the SMG (and shotgun) would dominate in close-mid range.

No other nerf required, as it would prevent "sniper-smgs", "shotgun-rifles" and "useless shotguns".
We could also add a pistol, it would be required for most weapons if my fix is added.

yeah, and add bullet penetration model to see what internal organs of deuces are damaged, ofc based on a age of a player, add helicopter hats with combusion engines fueled by coal mined by miners paid from Ben's pocket, add stockmarket to make coal prices fluent, remeber that since price is fluent, we need rubber bullets, water turrets, batons, shields etc etc to force miners work when they want to strike, or just dont want to mine. Add item shop to let Ben have money for miners etc.

Helicoper hats could be also fueled by jew combusion, and deuces should build as many as possible swastikas around to have more fuel.

Really, most of your ideas are somewhat like mine writed above.

also
"Making weapons server-sided things would be awful. That means me and everyone else including yourself would have to adjust to different play styles and weapon properties on each server we go to. And I'm not just going to get good on one specific server for this. Although this idea seems like a romantic-idealistic prophecy that you can now make rocket launchers or buff your favorite weapon some, it's not going to work with a game such as this. Think about more weapons instead. "
No. Read my post again and find out why.